Where does the sun set?

Christians keep bringing up the same outdated argument which has no leg to stand on. Christians tell us the Quran says "the Sun sets in murky water" which scientifically is incorrect.

Well, to be honest that saying will be true, the sun setting in murky water will be scientifically incorrect.  The question is, did Allah Swt himself confirm that setting in murky water is part of the suns orbit? Or did you not see how the sun set every evening in a pool of murky water? With at most disappointment to Christians there is no such saying found in the Quran. So, what does the verse say, which Christians love using against Muslims? Let's find out

 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (Surah 18:86)

So, what's happening here? One cannot understand a report of an event just by reading a verse. We have to read the context before we even make an attempt to explain.

83. They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

84. Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.

85. One (such) way he followed,

86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (Surah 18:83-86)

Ok so we read from context, Zul-qarnain is the name of this person, who commentators say was a pious king probably from Iran (cyrus) and was given power on earth and means travel on land as mentioned in the Quran verse 83. verse 83 and 84 tells us Zul-qarnain set out westwards on expeditions. Now coming to verse 86 missionaries’ favourite verse to attack Muslims.

We read Zul-qarnain reached the "setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water" notice Zul-qarnain  reached the west part of the land where normally the suns sets and at that western part of the land was murky spring. The Arabic word use is ʿaynin (a spring) rather than the word Bahr (Sea).

Secondly, the narration is based on what Zul-qarnain saw with his own eyes. The Arabic word used is wajadahā (he found) that is Zul-qarnain.  The word wajadahā is mentioned multiple times in Surah Kahf take for example verse 90

 Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it (wajadahā) rising on a people for whom We had not made against it any shield.

Here once again Zul-qarnain is mentioned this time "he found it" i.e. the sun rising on a people. Let’s see more on wajadahā

And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find (wawajadū) what they did present [before them]. And your Lord does injustice to no one. (surah 18:49)

We read in verse 49 of the same chapter how the criminal on that day (Judgement day) will find in the book presented before them. the word wawajadū is found (they will see it) lets show more

 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. (Surah 18:65)

Verse 65, Moses and his servant find Al Khidr after a long journey. Again the word fawajadā is mentioned (the found/ saw him) let's see another example

And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy." (Surah 28:23)

Here we read Moses Pbuh found or saw two men fighting the Arabic word is (Wajada) lets see another example

 Until, when he reached [a pass] between two mountains, he found beside them a people who could hardly understand [his] speech. (Surah 18:93)

Zul-qarnain found people near the two mountains the Arabic work wajada is used (he found/saw them) there are many more example of Wajadah all over. We can conclude Zul-qarnain saw the sun setting in murky spring, that was his vision not that Allah Swt said the sun sets in murky water no, this was a moment of Zul-qarnain. It's like one standing on the roof of a 30-story building only to see below cars looking like toys and people like little action figures. The views from certain places look amazing and surreal.

If the Quran really meant the sun was setting in murky water, then the Arabic word Dakhal would have been used meaning (enter). Now Wajadah is used for 5 senses e.g. sight, touch, hearing, smell etc. it's also used for strong emotional states.

We conclude the sun does not set in water and rather Zul-qarnain perceived it as the sun setting in a spring. That’s what Zul-qarnain thought to himself to be like. Allah Swt is narrating to us what Zul-qarnain saw. Zul-qarnain saw what looked like to him the sun setting in murky spring.  see the picture below

ask yourself looking at this picture wouldn't you think the sun is actually setting in water? thus, thats what Zul-qarnain perceived, it appeared to him (Zul-qaranain) that the  sun was setting in spring water.


REFRACTION

It is the ability for light rays to enter into a body and penetrate further into the body. it is somewhat the opposite of reflection. Refraction causes a deceptive perception (view). This is observed in a pool. An observer might see a coin in a pool, due to refractive index, he might think the pool is shallow, whereas it's deep. 
The formula for REFRACTIVE INDEX is REAL DEPTH all over the APPARENT DEPTH. 

in a nut shell, it was apparent to Zul-karnain, but it was not real. 

In the Bible we have something interesting on these lines. Talking about the two mountains, Gerizim and Ebal, the Book of Deuteronomy tells us;

“Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the campaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?” (KJV, Deuteronomy 11:30)

(Also, in the book of judges we are told the sun set upon them?)

And they passed on and went their way; and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin.

(Judges 19:14)


From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast. (Joshua 1:4)

The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (Ecclesiastes 5:1)

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Just a reminder from your own book

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” (KJV, Matthew 7: 1-2)

Remember how I have allotted as an inheritance for your tribes all the land of the nations that remain--the nations I conquered--between the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea in the west.(Joshua 23:4)

Interestingly the bible they believe to be accurate states John seeing an angel "standing in the sun"

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,"Come, gather together for the great supper of God (Revelations 19:17)

For the sake or argument If Christians have a problem with the sun setting in water, why don't they have a problem with an angel standing in the sun that was seen by the naked eye of a human?

so now we ask. Is it possible for a man to look directly at the sun and see angel standing?

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For the LORD God is a SUN

For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.( Psalm 84:11)

"For the LORD God is a SUN". The conjunction "&" does not dismiss the initial construction of God being a SUN. It does not read as "God is like a sun", rather "God is a sun", like and is changes the constructive meaning of the genitive pronoun God. the conjunction connecting to shield is not a hyphen where they are joint. Both sun and shield are two separate forms of noun & does not hyphen with a conjunction e.g., sword and shield, husband and wife, knife and fork, cup and saucer. The sun is exclusive and not connected to shield, it’s a conjugation identifying who or what that person is. We conclude the text single-handedly would read as "For the LORD God is a SUN"

Robert Bernard Alter is an American professor of Hebrew and comparative literature at the University of California, Berkeley, where he has taught since 1967. He published his translation of the Hebrew Bible in 2018

Unreliable Hadith about Sunset in the Spring of Warm Water

نشرت بواسطة: Waqar Akbar Cheema 12:35 PM في 'arsh , 3991 , abdullah bin ahmad , abu dawud , abu dharr , murky , spring , sun , Throne , warm , water 9 تعليقات

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم الحمد لله وحده و الصلاة و السلام على من لا نبي بعده و على آله و أصحابه أجمعين

Analysis of the reliability of the alleged report about the sun setting in a spring of warm water according to the Holy Prophet- peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.

There is a Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud that has been brought up by some anti-Islamic polemicists.

The narration:

The narration along with the chain of narrators goes as;

Yazid bin Harun- Sufyan bin Husain- Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith 3991)

Related narrations:

In Musnad Ahmad these words are part of a longer narration reported through same chain of narrators;

Abu Dharr narrated, “Once I was with the Prophet riding a donkey on which there was a saddle or a (piece of) velvet. That was at sunset. He said to me, ‘O Abu Dharr, do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said, ‘It sets in a spring of murky water, (then) it goes and prostrates before its Lord, the Exalted in Might and the Ever-Majestic, under the Throne. And when it is time to go out, Allah allows it to go out and thus it rises. But, when He wants to make it rise where it sets, He locks it up. The sun will then say, “O my Lord, I have a long distance to run.” Allah will say, “Rise where you have set.” That (will take place) when no (disbelieving) soul will get any good by believing then.’” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21459 al-Risala ed.)

This narration is quite similar to the narration found in many hadith works including Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc. except the words “It sets in a spring of warm water.”

In Sahih Bukhari it goes as;

Sufyan (al-Thawri)- Al-A’mash- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38) (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

The significant difference is of the words “it sets in a spring of warm/murky water.”

Analysis of the chains of narrators:

From Abu Darr, it both ways i.e. with and without the words under consideration, it narrated by Yazid al-Taymi and from him by his son Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi. From Ibrahim it is narrated by six different narrators;

1- Al-A’mash: And from him at least five people narrate it. See Sahih Bukhari etc.

2- Yunus bin ‘Ubaid: And from him at least three narrators report this narration. See Sahih Muslim etc.

3- Musa bin al-Musayyab al-Thaqafi: From him it is narrated by Abdah bin Sulayman, See Al-‘Uzmah of Abu al-Shaykh al-Asbahani 4/1189

4- Abdul A’la al-Taymi: The narrator down from him is Mis’ar, See Hilyah al-Awliya 5/89

5- Harun bin Sa’d: Abdul Ghaffar bin al-Qasim narrates from him. See Al-‘Uzmah of Abu al-Shaykh al-Asbahani 4/1191 and Al-Tabarani’s Mu’jam Al-Awst, Hadith 4470

6- Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah: The sole narrator down from him is Sufyan bin Husain, See Sunan Abu Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadrak al-Hakim, Musnad al-Bazzar etc.

Of all these various routes from Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi, it is only through Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah that these words “It sets in a spring of warm water” are narrated.

In short, there are six narrators reporting the hadith from Ibrahim bin Yazid, and only one of them i.e. Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah quotes the particular words. And to add to the trouble there is again only one narrator down from him and he is Sufyan bin Husain whereas parallel to Sufyan there are at least eleven people narrating the hadith without these words on the authority of five different people narrating from Ibrahim bin Yazid.

Following flow diagram for the above detail gives the pictorial display the strangeness of these words. Down from Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi only the narrators with red outline for their names give the words under consideration against loads of other narrators who do not report these words.




The narration is anomalous (shaadh) and defective (mu’allal):

This fact alone is enough to make the narration dubious. No doubt both Al-Hakam and Sufyan are per se trustworthy narrators but because on their respective levels they go against much reliable and numerous narrators. Such a narration reported this way is termed as “shaadh” i.e. anomalous.

Carefully read the definition of anomalous (shaadh) hadith given by Ibn al-Salah (d. 643 A.H.) in his magnus opus, “Kitab Ma’rifat ‘anwa’ ‘ilm al-Hadith” translated under the title “An Introduction to the Science of Hadith”;

“… the anomalous hadith is the one which a reliable transmitter relates and which is in conflict with what other people relate.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, Translated by Dr. Eerik Dickinson, Garnet Publishing Ltd. Berkshire 2006 p.57)

Also see the definition of defective (mu’allal) hadith given by Ibn Salah;

“A defective hadith is one in which a defect impugning its soundness is detected, although it outwardly appears to be free of the defect. That may apply to an isnad made up of reliable transmitters which outwardly seems to fulfill the conditions of soundness. Someone being alone in transmitting the hadith as well as others contradicting him aid in catching the defect.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.67)

And when a report or a part of it becomes “shaadh” it ceases to be a sahih (sound) report. For this the definition of a “Sahih hadith” will help.

Hafiz Ibn Salah writes;

“The sahih (sound) hadith is a “supported” hadith (al-hadith al-musnad), the isnad of which coheres continuously through the transmission of one upright and accurate person from another up to its point of termination. The sound hadith can be neither anomalous (shaadh) nor defective (mu’allal),” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.5)

So merely being “sahih al-isnaad” is not enough for the report itself to be sahih.

Therefore, the very fact that Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah’s narrates differently from five other narrators reporting it on the authority of Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi, makes the narration “shaadh” (anomalous) which is a kind of weak (da’if) reports.

But the trouble with the narration does not end here. Down from Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah, Sufyan bin Husain is also unique in narrating these words whereas the number of narrators down from narrators other than Al-Hakam narrating it from Ibrahim al-Taymi is at least eleven. There is not a single supporting narrator for Sufyan either.

Hafiz Al-Bazzar (d. 292 A.H.) after giving this narration writes;

“We do not know anyone other than Sufyan bin Husain reporting it through the chain: Al-Hakam bin ‘Utayba –Ibrahim- his father- Abu Dharr, while Yunus bin ‘Ubayd, Suleman Al-A’mash and Harun bin Sa’d have also narrated it from Ibrahim.” (Musnad Al-Bazzar- Bahr al-Zakhkhar, under Hadith 4010)

And this is important, not only because it adds more to the oddity of the narration, but also because Sufyan bin Husain though generally considered authentic was also criticized by few scholars. This criticism does not harm his general narrations but becomes significant when he goes out of the way and narrates what other narrators from the same original source do not.

Muhammad ibn Sa’d said about him: “He was reliable (but) he made many mistakes in his narrations.” (Tabaqat al-Kubra, Dar al-Kotob al-Ilmiyya, Beirut, 1990, vol.7 p.227 No. 3417)

Conclusion:

These details make it quite clear that according to rules of reporting it is not right to attribute these words to the Messenger of Allah- on him be the peace and blessings of Allah.

Apparently, the words from Qur’an 18:86 were confused and appended to the hadith that had no link to the ayah whatsoever. The narrator failed to understand the real significance of the verse and the hadith and for apparent semblance he confused the two.

The verse from the Holy Qur’an i.e. surah 18 ayah 86 is simply about how the sunset appeared to Zulqarnain and even the classical Muslim scholars understood it like that. The detailed explanation of it is found HERE.

As to the meanings of the Hadith of Abu Dharr- may Allah be pleased with him- about the sun prostrating under the Throne (‘arsh) of Allah, visit THIS PAGE for explanation.

So the excitement of the missionaries is in vain. Pity!

Indeed Allah knows the best!